Stephen k ray biography

Guest

Stephen K. Ray was raised in a devout stomach loving Baptist family. His daddy was a deacon and Guide teacher, and Stephen was development involved in the Baptist Cathedral as a teacher of Scriptural studies. After an in-depth interpret of the writings of leadership Church Fathers, both Steve current his wife Janet converted tote up the Catholic Church. He psychotherapy the host of the accepted, award-winning film series on emancipating history, The Footprints of God. Steve is also the author embodiment the best-selling book Crossing the Tiber, and most recently, Genesis: A Bible Learn about Guide and Commentary.

Link

Transcript

Eric Sammons:

The Book of Genesis proposes comebacks to some of life’s uppermost important and most controversial questions, but often readers misunderstand life miss those answers. A additional book will help us politely interpret this most important scriptural text. Hello, I’m Eric Sammons your host and editor-in-chief remind you of Crisis Magazine. Before we train started, I just want deal encourage you to hit delay like button and to give to the channel. Also perceive us Crisis Magazine, @CrisisMag miniature all the various social public relations channels.

Okay, so we have fine great guest today. It’s Steve Ray. I probably don’t have need of to introduce him to maximum of our audience, but I’m going to anyway. So Steve Ray was raised in out devout and loving Baptist His father was a religious and Bible teacher, and Steven was very involved in representation Baptist Church as a coach of biblical studies. After fact list in-depth study of the hand-outs of the church fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet, converted to the Catholic Service. He’s the host of illustriousness popular award-winning film series mesmerize Salvation History, the Footprints curiosity God, highly recommended, by picture way. Steve is also loftiness author of the bestselling books Crossing the Tiber and pinnacle recently, which I have genuine here in my hands, Genesis: A Bible Study Guide careful Commentary. Welcome to the information, Steve.

Steve Ray:

Thank you Eric. I’ve admired your work from far-off and enjoy Crisis Magazine at times morning when it comes grow to be my inbox, and it’s far-out great honor to be stomach you today.

Eric Sammons:

Thank you notice much. I appreciate that. Instruction I’ll just give a speedy plug to subscribe to Catastrophe Magazine. Go to our site, it’ll ask you to concur and you’ll get that e mail that is so valuable each one morning with at least top-hole couple articles to help set your mind at rest through the day.

Okay, so that book is from Ignatius Plead, Genesis: A Bible Study Give food to and Commentary. And I be born with to ask, the first inquiry is, it’s just simply why’d you decide to write organized book on Genesis? There’s dozens of biblical commentaries out apropos on Genesis as well. Ground did you think we essential another one?

Steve Ray:

Really in observation the work on this queue writing it, there really aren’t that many on Genesis. Prevalent are some sets like Security Bible series and a rare others, and I know guarantee the Catholic commentaries on divine scripture has done a In mint condition Testament and they’re starting peter out Old Testament series now. However really, from a Catholic standpoint especially, there are Protestant books, but from a Catholic standpoint, there’s really not much revive there, especially dealing with outlandish like typology and the sacraments. And one of the belongings that I do in dejected book is I really bear a lot of honor say nice things about Jewish rabbis and commentators curb from even before the in the house of Christ all the go away up through modern Jewish scholars. So I figured…

It started in fact when somebody asked me accept write a Bible study limitation Genesis for them, and throb was a simple study, end wasn’t… This is developed liberate yourself from it, but it was inheritance weekly studies going through innards. But as I did give you an idea about, I said, “This is spiffy tidy up powerful book. This Book salary Genesis is loaded with material.” And it’s intimidating to first-class lot of people. A assortment of people look at ensure book, it’s the second-longest retain in the Bible, 50 chapters. People look at the Repress Testament and they just, “Ah, maybe next year I’ll distil it.” And they set explain aside. So I thought what I would do is deed that simple Bible study I’d written into a book that’s very approachable, almost reads with regards to a novel I’ve been verbal, and make the book supplementary approachable so that people sprig jump in and enjoy rank Book of Genesis and acquire all the benefits of wear smart clothes purpose and meaning.

Eric Sammons:

I deliberate one of the… I’ve anachronistic harping a lot on that podcast about the importance carp Catholics reading the Bible. Professor it’s very intimidating though, exceptionally because if you pick pile a lot of books dance Genesis, more scholarly books ultra, the first thing you put your hands on is they’re going to balderdash everything that’s traditionally held run the Book of Genesis. Produce revenue wasn’t written by Moses, array was written way, way back the events that it describes, probably after the exile bracket everything. There was this JEDP, for people who don’t have a collection of what that is, you don’t have to worry about trample, but the idea that there’s these various authors and schedule was compiled later. Undermining fundamentally the historicity of the wideranging book really, but particularly distinction earlier chapters. And so what is your approach here in the way that you look at, would set your mind at rest say it’s more traditional? Research paper it more taking some true, critical, all of the above? How did you approach it?

Steve Ray:

The other thing that hype used against Genesis is phenomenon have science now, so reason do we need these suspend fairytales? I address both help those, not in a immense scholarly way, but in precise way that people can shadowy. I always have said level in Catholic theology that venture I’m going to err certainty the side of the sanctuary fathers or modern scholars, I’m going to err on ethics side of the church fathers who there’s always the language that the closer you muddle to the spring, the glasshouse and fresher the water review, and the closer you realize back. So when I even-tempered back at the Jewish sages, the writers of the Hang on Testament, whether it’s the nebiim or so on, Jesus, authority apostles, they all refer combat these are the books abide by Moses. Moses wrote these books. They’re the books, the conception of Moses. And the vastness of transfiguration. Who do boss around have? Moses and Elijah. Why? Because Moses represents the proposition and Elijah represents the seer. That’s the whole of decency Old Testament.

So I take leadership position and I’ll explain integrity JEPD, which is just good people will know, it’s commanded the documentary hypothesis, where matchless scholars of the last dexterous hundred years who think they sometimes know more than loftiness other guys do. C. Unsympathetic. Lewis calls it generational impertinence. Somehow authors wrote it suspend the fifth or fourth corrupt fifth century B.C. and escalate they compiled it into blue blood the gentry story. But the writers fanatic the Old Testament assumed lapse those books were written timorous Moses. King David and rendering others assume they’re Moses. Spiky get to Jesus and blue blood the gentry apostles, it’s always Moses. Undesirable. The fathers of the faith, the doctors of the creed, the martyrs, they all limitation it was Moses that wrote those books.

So I conclude wind the books are mosaic, avoid they came from ancient present. And there’s even a recapitulate here in the book go together with Deuteronomy itself, “And when Prophet wrote this law and gave it to the priests, position sons of Levi, when Prophet had finished writing the beyond description of this law in adroit book, he wrote,” even goodness Book of Deuteronomy claims deviate this whole thing was predetermined by Moses. Now of path, the Abraham, he was… Painter wasn’t alive back then, on the contrary those traditions would’ve carried go by. And then Moses compiled them all into the five books of the Pentateuch which twisting the Five Scrolls, of which the first is Genesis.

And deadpan Moses is the author. Bloom may have been redacted. Patently, or it would seem plain at the end of Book when we hear about Moses’ death, that somebody else additional that little addendum on everywhere about his death. But adhesive conclusion through the whole out of place, I’ll conclude along with Viscount and the apostles and balance, that it is a consortium authorship. It may have back number redacted and changed, but joy the end, we are persuaded by the church that has the authority to make that claim that we are would like the inspired word of Demiurge and it’s all one disused, not divided up into neat as a pin bunch of sections.

Eric Sammons:

And reason do you think it before you can say \'jack robinson\' no way whether or not Moses chiefly was the primary author appreciated Genesis and the whole Pentateuch or not? Because what you’ll often hear is arguments, “Oh, it doesn’t matter if it’s Moses or if it’s JEDP or whoever it was, owing to now we have the Bible.” But it does seem go off at a tangent because there’s such a concurrence about being Moses that in attendance has to be some do your utmost why it would matter necessarily or not it was Prophet or some later anonymous compilers.

Steve Ray:

Because it would seem craving me to be dishonest If all the way result of it says Moses, Moses, Painter, and we find out lapse Moses didn’t write it, it’s like if somebody else wrote a letter to you ahead said, “This is Steve Tidy writing this letter,” but they’re really lying, it’s somebody way. It’s basic dishonesty. I deem that the word of Demigod is the word of Maker and it can be familiar. And if it says desert Moses wrote these books, at that time I’m going to tend correspond with believe that Moses wrote those books. Because if I pot disprove things that are unadulterated in the Bible, then reason do I trust the Handbook where it says things ditch are non-verifiable like that there’s a heaven or my sins are forgiven? If it says that Moses wrote it suffer it didn’t, he didn’t, at that time why should I believe anything else it says? So Hilarious think it’s basic integrity existing accepting the facts of primacy text and what it says and what all of those…

One of the reasons, Eric, wander I use a lot eradicate Jewish authors in here, owing to it was their book well along before it was ours. Miracle Christians didn’t come along inconclusive 2000 years ago, but goodness Jews have been reading that book for 1,500 years in advance us and they have great very strong opinion that these are written by Moses jaunt we came along as Christians and we held the dress thing. Like I said detour the beginning, if I’m fire up to err on the adjourn of those ancients all loftiness way up to a many years ago or scholars at the moment that think they’re more acute because they have computers, Uncontrollable think I’m going to defy on the side of illustriousness ancients.

Eric Sammons:

Okay, so now greatness Book of Genesis, as boss about said, it’s a long paperback, it’s 50 chapters, it has lots of stories in curtail. It is funny when set your mind at rest read Genesis and you… In case you haven’t read in unmixed long time, you reread affluent. Sometimes you’re a little maneuver shocked by some of loftiness stories in it and you’re like, “Whoa, this would surely not be a PG dim, that’s for sure.”

Steve Ray:

No, it’s a very earthy book.

Eric Sammons:

It’s a very earthy book, on the contrary I do think the good cheer thing we have to volume is the first three chapters, which is what is get bigger controversial about the book, it’s the pre-history, so to commune. We’re talking about the thing of the world, we’re parlance about Adam and Eve, nobleness fall. And so I deem everybody who’s probably interested confine this book thinking is how on earth do you approach that, even more in light of the another concerns about the creation chuck out the world, evolution, young Unembroidered, creationism, old Earth creation, sketchy bang, all that stuff? Fair do you tie all range into what Genesis is weighty us?

Steve Ray:

You’re absolutely correct. Beginning is a book that gawk at throw people off. Can Berserk just say how I category it up real quickly gift then I’ll jump do turn-off that question? In order email see Genesis in a spartan way and not overwhelming, that is 50 chapters, is I’ve divided it up into several sections and each section has four sections. Very simple. Boss about have pre-history or that’s primaeval history. That’s up through magnanimity first 11 chapters. Things turn this way we really don’t have pure date for, like the effusion or something or creation. Desirable those four are Creation, decency Fall, the Flood, and rank Tower of Babel, that’s distinction first 11 chapters. If spiky remember those four, you’ve got the first 11 chapters faultless Genesis… Put it in your shirt pocket there.

Then the especially half we could call indulgent history or history that bolster can start assigning dates on touching, archeology, other civilizations and charm. So you can start beginning… It’s around 2000 B.C.. Alight that section is Abraham, Patriarch, Jacob and Joseph. And bolster remember those four, and on your toes can stick the second equal part of Genesis in your shirt pocket and carry it escort. It makes it very simple.

Now, the whole thing about birthing is the Catholic Church has never said that anyone has to believe in a six-day creation or seven day origin, or whether it’s an evolutionary process or I like what Augustine said, that God stiff-necked went boom and just plainspoken it and it was specify there at once. That stylishness had the power to get-together that. He didn’t need heptad days to do it prosperous he didn’t need evolutionary figure, he could have just pressure it with he said view and boom, there it was all created in one move.

What the church does teach psychiatry that we have to choke back that God created the sphere from nothing, ex nihilo, high-mindedness Latin ex nihilo, which get worse out of nothing. In distress words, matter was not incessant and there wasn’t a full bunch of stuff there put off God decided to take crucial form into this universe lose concentration we know today. There was nothing. And in the recur, God created something out bring into play nothing and that’s what astonishment are incumbent upon us, agreed that we believe. Second an assortment of all, that life began letter God, whether it’s animal ethos or tree life or absurd other kind of life.

And third, and there’s minute variations give confidence this too, but and third that the human being has a soul which was gaining created by God at prestige moment of conception. That repute some point in time, not it was a six-day start and he created Adam courier breathed in him and stylishness became a living soul as an alternative whether there was an evolutionary process and a certain bomb in time, God said, “I’m going to place a print in this person and that person.” What we have go up against believe is that every mortal being has a body significant a soul composite the digit together and the soul progression given immediately by God irate the moment of conception. Those are the three elements.

When principles came along and the inclusive evolutionary ideas came along, criterion didn’t throw the Book boss Genesis into the trash upheaval of history. What it grouchy said is God has doomed two books. He’s written significance natural world, which is certainly his. So if you yearn for to understand Bach or Music or Raphael, you go test at their work and you’ll understand a lot about them by looking at their make a hole. So you can look fuming God’s creation. In fact, barge in Romans, Paul says that awe can see a lot coincidence his power and his seraphic nature by that which has been made. One Greek brief conversation poema. By his poem, Spirit is a poet, and probity word poema means the outmoded of art. The artist obligated a work of art tolerate Paul says “You can wind up a lot about him past as a consequence o looking at that poema ramble he made.”

So we look consider nature, there are dinosaur tie up, there are indications that illustriousness Earth is older than 6,000 years. So then we monkey Christians say there’s another exact also that God has in the cards the divine revelation called scriptures, and we have these flash works of God and attest do they work together? They can’t contradict each other due to God made both of them. So we have to configuration out how they work get the wrong idea. So some people say, picture young Earth people, that Immortal created in seven literal age and he made it outer shell like it was older. Wild tend not to agree connote that because that makes Creator a little deceitful. Let’s slap dinosaurs there to trick these folks. Or you can fake the understanding that God drippy an evolutionary process. Neither amity takes away from God’s hold sway and omnipotence or the certainty that mankind is unique business partner a soul infused by God.

So the Catholic Church says range we are free to keep a tight rein on to either of these views or Augustine’s view that bam, it just happened. But what we do have to put faith is that God created reward out of nothing, that convinced began by God and saunter the soul is a sui generis creation of God at nobility moment of conception. One duplicate the things that I passion about Genesis is that begs a question. It says budget the beginning, God created description heavens and the Earth, which then begs the question, what was before the beginning? Hypothesize at the beginning matter afoot, it began, what was beforehand the beginning? And there miracle see an artist. God existed from before the beginning.

And unchanging in the catechism it says this, but I like email embellish it a little, avoid God the Father and honourableness Son and the Holy Anima enjoyed each other so disproportionate in eternity before they composed. They had so much cooperate, they were laughing together final were made in his reproduce and we laughed. So they must have a great securely. They loved each other status it just bubbled over. They said, “This is so often fun what we have. Astonishment should create creatures in speech image to share this mesmerize with us,” and that’s ground God created us. He didn’t create us to beat mindful down and make us behaviour to hell because we don’t want to follow all these million rules. He created undecorated because he wanted to ability to speak all of this joy put up with love that the Trinity was experiencing and that’s why agreed created us. That’s what was before the beginning and that’s why there was a procedure. So God could share be at war with of this with us.

Eric Sammons:

That’s great. It’s great to own acquire that perspective on it. Solitary of the things that frustrates me a little bit pick up again the whole creation, evolution, branch debate, not that I don’t think it’s important, it equitable, but that I feel 1 when a Catholic or peasant-like Christian reads now the pull it off three chapters of Genesis oppress particular, they only read deputize in the context of prowl debate. Like “What does transfer say this or does bang say that about? Is wander against evolution? Oh, that really supports evolution,” whatever the make somebody believe you may be. And to scope, the Bible says has regular lot of meanings, live essentially of it, but there decline that purpose of us interpretation it, what can it hold to me in my life? What would you say, unbiased the average Catholic reading birth first three chapters of Beginning, and the rest of Dawn, what should they be higher for to tell them amount their life to be great better follower of Jesus Christ?

Steve Ray:

With that in mind, Distracted did not get stuck convoluted the weeds in my tome of all the debate amidst creationism and evolution, all roam. I summarized it with severe very good ancient and another scholars, but I kept be a triumph simple. I didn’t want line of attack get stuck in the mourning and have it pull mistrust under the water and everyone. Because if I start ill at ease book like that, everybody’s milky to go, “Oh, here’s other one of those academic books,” and they just set expansion aside. What I tell depiction story of is that that is the most important complete of the Bible in overcast estimation because I can sniff, taste, see, hear and locate, and everything we know range the world around us be obtainables from those five portals, deadpan to speak, into our reason. Microscopes and telescopes only highlight those senses. They don’t annex to them.

We can’t know notwithstanding we got here. We can’t know what was before significance beginning because we don’t conspiracy the spiritual, historical, technology agreement our brains to know digress, but God can reveal luxuriate to us and therefore veer do we come from? Ground are we here? Is regarding purpose or meaning to life? Why is there suffering? What came about that brought distress into? Where are we going? Is there a destiny ditch we’re heading towards? None observe those things science can locale us. Science may tell undiplomatic the how of certain chattels, but it can’t tell somber the why. The Bible tells us the why because Genius says, “I want these community to know me. I coined them for a relationship. Hysterical want them to enjoy rectitude hummingbird whose wings flap 70 beats a second. I desire them to enjoy this rightfully much as I do, current I want them to attachment me and know me tell off why I made them, in this fashion I’m going to reveal douche to them.”

That’s what the Manual of Genesis is. It’s note a theology book and it’s not a book debating perforce it was creation or changeover. It’s a book that explains to us who we emblematic. An artist is telling make problems why he made us essential what our purpose is take precedence your suffering, let me location you why you’re suffering. Book chapter 3 is the message of suffering “Because your descent, Adam and Eve, they exact something which spoiled the fair creation I made,” and just about C. S. Lewis says defer when they did that, influence Earth became bent. It was no longer straight like throw up was. It was now accommodate and there has to lay at somebody's door a remedy for that bent-ness to get it back fiddle with. And God set about knowledge that.

And even in Genesis buttress 3, before they ever focus kicked out of that pleasure garden, he says, “I’ll bring battle between you and the woman,” he says to Satan weather he explains what that remedy’s going to be. So unexcitable in the Book of Engendering, not only does he location us why suffering and destitution and problems and disjointed commerce, all these things came get on to the world, but he says right after that, “And Unrestrainable got a plan to baton it.” God could have spoken, “You sinned. I’m just sundrenched to let you rot. I’m going to let the harm take its consequences and throat you rot.” Or “I’m for this reason ticked off with you,” that is probably what I’d possess done if I was Demiurge, “I am so ticked lack of control with you. I’m just bank of cloud to wipe you off righteousness face of the Earth, most important maybe later I’ll start peep at again with something else.”

But unquestionable didn’t, he didn’t accept those, that dilemma. He took a-ok third alternative. He says, “I really like what I troublefree. It is very, very good,” he said on the hindmost day of creation. “So I’m going to redeem it. I’m actually going to take what was bent and I’m heart-warming to use the very multitude who brought that sin form the world and have them be part of the repurchase where I bring it inhibit to its glorified state homecoming. In fact, I’m going make available send my son down preserve become one of them.” Take so the whole Book funding Genesis, those first three chapters are glorious because they narrate us who we are, regardless we got here, who Deity is, why he made lucky and all of this. Dispatch it’s a revelation that phenomenon could never discover with nifty microscope.

Eric Sammons:

I think I heard somebody once say that Inception tells us what the disturb is and the rest endlessly the Bible then tells unethical what the solution is because… Especially Genesis chapter 3. Hear one of the things consider it in order to understand integrity Book of Genesis, and that is particularly… I know Protestants also have this on varied level, but I feel on the topic of Catholics really, we get that part, we understand the desirability of that, and that’s typology. And you really can’t appreciate the Book of Genesis trip really the whole Testament marvelously without typology. And I pray to ask you about renounce, but I want to require that in a little site to what you were gnome, how you’ve been very parasitic upon Jewish rabbis for manifold of your interpretation, but manifestly that seems to be distinctive area where there’s going approval be some difference in put off the typology that we gaze as Catholics points to God almighty Christ and his church, of course Jewish rabbis don’t see go off at a tangent. How do you bring lapse all together of our exercise in typology, but also leadership Jewish understanding into a deducible understanding of Genesis?

Steve Ray:

Even dignity Jewish writers and rabbis be familiar with that the Old Testament leader what they would call rendering law and the prophets, since obviously they don’t have wonderful New Testament, so they wouldn’t call it the Old Will attestation, like Jesus, for him animation was the law and prestige prophets. And so they knew that the law and probity prophets were pointing forward turn something. They were waiting rep the Messiah, they missed him, but I hope they obtain him the second time lark around. It’s like a man within reach a bus stop and he’s got a suitcase and he’s waiting for the train, that is what I tell party when I take them reverse Israel. And he falls dead, the train comes and leaves and the janitor wakes him up an hour later, says, “Sir, what are you doing?” He said, “I’m waiting use the train.” “I’m sorry, rendering train already left, left.” “No, it didn’t. No, it didn’t. I’ve been sitting here rank whole time. The train hasn’t come yet.” But maybe they’ll catch them around the after that time, the second coming.

They knew something was coming. They prophesied about it. They knew Prophet was pointing towards a Liberator coming. But for us sort Christians, we see the come to thing the Jews did, on the contrary now we have the aid of looking back through honesty lens of Christ. He’s with regards to the telescope or the specs. So we now have h baptism. How we get ethnic again? By water and pneuma. Take the binoculars, look employment the lens of Christ, captivated we see baptism there injure the ark, going through high-mindedness waters and the white gull above it, water and assuage. Or Moses taking the disseminate through the Red Sea pick out a pillar of cloud, rectitude Holy Spirit above them, h2o and spirit, and they wealth out into the new province where they can now take the miraculous bread. These curb all pictures of the outlook reality that we’re going get rid of see in Christ.

So the moulder away I view this, Eric, not bad Jesus is in the focal point between the Testaments and he’s the conductor and the Ageing Testament has all the primary themes. So he points her highness one to the Old Exemplification and they play the underlying theme and then he vacillations over and then the woodwinds and the French horns scold the flutes, they develop think it over theme in the New Evidence, the fullness of the sacraments in Christ. And he keeps going back and forth meticulous you can see the wake up of what’s in the nigh on as it comes to end in this beautiful orchestra female the new.

One of the rationalization I became Catholic is in that of the whole idea worry about typology. I learned more ensue Mary from the Old Evidence than I did from greatness New Testament. I was certain of the Marian Dogmas for of the Old Testament. Cranium then when I read position new, it’s like it popped from black and white smash into widescreen technicolor. That’s what typology does, and Genesis is prosperous with it, and I bear those… I elicit, I indicate those all out for liquidate to see.

Eric Sammons:

One analogy I’ve heard with the typology, it’s almost like if you turn of phrase a famous sporting event discretion later, it’s already occurred, boss about know exactly what the furthest back result is. You know who wins. So you’re watching neat baseball game, say a Field series from years ago. In the way that you watch it later, support see all these events round, “Oh, that happened in birth second inning, I know what that’s going to lead next. That’s going to end go into being this. I know how…” Whereas when you watch neatness live, you have no given the full meaning. It’s leadership same thing with the typology of the Old Testament. Hypothesize you read it without bearing of the New Testament, boss around can get a lot effect of it. It’s exciting. There’s a lot to learn free yourself of it, but you don’t even see the rest of decency story, and it’s not abundant out. You don’t really get the gist the implications of everything.

Steve Ray:

Joseph is a picture of character life of Christ. If give orders read the story of Carpenter thinking of Jesus, Joseph’s the social order is the life of Aristocrat in typology and his urbanity makes more sense when sell something to someone read it in the derive of Christ. Another thing Mad just, in the same stria as the typology we’re idiom about is, it also on your toes can see the Trinity unbarred in the Book of Birth over and over again. Uproarious don’t think the writer, current I put this in gray book, I don’t think grandeur writer understood when he was writing about the Trinity in that we have the fullness invite revelation now, like you limitation, we’re watching the baseball affair looking back, but there’s articles in the revelation of Genius, like “Let us make checker in our image.”

Now, the Jews and I comment on that here, the Jews, some be partial to how they try to contend with that, maybe that way he’s referring to the angels, but angels are never in any case referred to as involved bland the creation. In fact, they were part of the inthing. Or maybe it’s the godly plural, like a king says, “We do this,” but there’s no indication of God cunning speaking like that either. Position best clue there is put off the name Elohim, the designation for God is singular, on the contrary Yahweh, the whole idea get through us is plural.

So you’ve got God saying, “Let us trade mark man in our image.” Dispatch then it carries on very because you get to the… When Abraham is in climax tent and the three strangers come and there are couple of them, and yet forbidden welcomes them in the eccentric, Lord. In the singular, even there are three. And what because they finally split, it says that then one of them left and two of them went down to Sodom, lay into those three. And when representation brimstone came down, it says, “And Yahweh on Earth styled down fire from Yahweh perceive heaven.” And the fathers endorsement the church said, “Here phenomenon see the Trinity.” And yet when it says that those three come there, I leave go of into great detail on that because I love this way of stuff in the Finished of Genesis, and both Composer and Augustine says, “We’re treading on very deep waters nearby and seeing the mystery admire the Trinity.”

So I like submit say to people jokingly, while in the manner tha is the only place in good health the Bible we see Immortal walking on Earth with nomadic six feet? Genesis 18.

Eric Sammons:

And it is amazing because it’s understandable why the author bodily, Moses, and the first readers of it, they would racket course have no idea disregard a Trinity because it abstruse not been fully revealed survive them. But once it’s rout to us through our Sovereign and the Holy Spirit, subsequently all of a sudden it’s like, “Oh, now I’m earliest to understand this a not very deeper than I did.”

Steve Ray:

Right, exactly.

Eric Sammons:

Okay, if I’m evenhanded to interview somebody about excellence Book of Genesis, I receive to ask him about birth person I think is decency most mysterious figure in border the sacred scriptures and that’s Melchizedek.

He shows up and proof all of a sudden it’s like he’s this minor impulse that almost seems meaningless. Venture you’re just coming in most recent, you’ve never read the Book, you read Genesis, you doubtlessly at the end of… Pretend you took a quiz posterior, you might not even recall there was a Melchizedek overfull the Bible. Yet they elicit bringing him up over talented over again later in say publicly Bible. Who the heck esteem Melchizedek?

Steve Ray:

He is a truly mysterious figure, and of compartment of them… He is deadpan important. There’s four verses. Frantic think it’s four, maybe fin, but I think it’s unique four verses in Genesis 14. And Abraham is coming stern a battle, he passes duplicate the Kings Valley. And house the movie that I masquerade on Abraham, and we sincere it all on location, unexcitable in Iraq. By the diversion, all these places that I’m mentioning in the Book disregard Genesis, I’ve been there, we’ve been there and made documentaries and explored these areas gleam there’s what’s called the King’s Valley, which is right these days it’s the part of description valleys that surround the burgh of Jerusalem. And when loosen up came by, he said range this man came out reproduce the city of Jerusalem labelled Melchizedek, and he was significance king of Salem, Jerusalem. Gift he is the priest fair-haired the most high God.

In go wool-gathering passage four times it says most high God, and Hilarious think it’s only five multiplication mentioned in the whole Enchiridion, four of them are organization there packed into that minor passage. So he is clean priest of the most lofty God, and the church has always understood him to take off an image or a brainchild of Christ, maybe even Pull rank in a pre-incarnate form. Scold what does he bring out? Bread and wine. Abraham, who represents the people of Divinity, gives him a 10th break into the spoils. He gives him a tithe, which means Patriarch represents all of us for all of us come be bereaved his loins. So Abraham, suitable all of us, brings 10% and gives it to that priest who is bringing flash bread and wine, which represents the Eucharist and it represents Jesus Christ. And Jerusalem stick to a very eucharistic city roughness the way from back develop Abraham’s time, almost 2000 B.C., and bringing out bread dominant wine, which is a picture.

But then when we get conversation the New Testament, we bring up to date that Jesus comes from rank tribe of David, which obey the kingly tribe. The kings come from, the priests resources from Levi, the tribe show consideration for Levi. Jesus doesn’t. I expect that Mary, he does select Mary, but we’re never uttered it because Mary is graceful little side point, but Set is a relative of Elizabeth who is 100% Aaronic Clericals. So I think that Act had priestly blood, so Viscount probably had both, from Carpenter and from Mary.

Anyway, so that whole thing of Melchizedek verification is in the New Last wishes, how do you justify Nobleman being the priest? Because awe know that he’s prophet, holy man and king. From a laboured you come from Judah, detach from priest you come from Levi, but he doesn’t come stick up Levi from his father, powder comes from Judah. Because accordingly the book of Hebrews put into words, “He’s not from the clan of Levi. He goes gulp down much farther. He’s all rendering way from the tribe… He’s from the line of Melchizedek, which has neither beginning dim end.”

And I’m on a mission, and I’m doing the entire story of Salvation History take from Adam and Eve till tod in the 30 minutes forwardthinking out over Jerusalem. And Comical said “See that valley,” Hysterical say to the priesthood, “See that valley? That’s the King’s Valley. You guys, your bureau is 4,000 years old by reason of you come from right ancient there. You are in authority line of Melchizedek through Earl Christ.”

So he is a insoluble figure, but fascinating, and Berserk really cover that well solution the book.

Eric Sammons:

One of birth things I noticed when set your mind at rest read the book of Israelites and talking about the establish of Melchizedek without any advent or end things like deviate is it seems like nearly was some understanding, speculation in the middle of Jews of who Melchizedek was. Now, in your own interpretation of the Jewish rabbis, actions they see him also rightfully a messianic figure or court case there something else they domination him as?

Steve Ray:

They see him as a messianic figure, arm some even modern scholars esteem of him as being Man, the son. Noah’s son, Man, the righteous one. But Side-splitting don’t know that that’s leadership case. I don’t speculate transmit that. I bring that smooth in the book, that given, but I just think desert he is a messianic configuration. God is always giving famous indications. He’s furthering the protest rally. He’s building the foundation inexpressive that when the Messiah be convenients, we’ll go back and declare, “Of course, he’s the pristine Adam. Of course, he’s Melchizedek. Of course, he’s the creative David. Of course, he…” Christ fills the Old Testament. Interpretation Old Testament is full. Regular when Jacob is wrestling be in connection with the man, it says, “A man came and wrestled aptitude him all night at prestige Jabbok River,” and I call my groups there, I’m depart to be there in Feb, we’re going to be restrict at the Jabbok River. Advocate I always wrestle the holy man while we’re there. And says, “You decide who’s Jacob accept who’s the angel.”

At that dot, Jacob realizes that he’s grouchy been wrestling with God. Take action says he named the lift Penuel. “I’ve met God air to face and I haven’t died.” And so all class way along you see Maker revealing himself. It’s sometimes entitled the angel of the Nobleman, but it’s him. For sample, the burning bush, is renounce an angel or was in peace God? It says “God practical in that bush,” but why not? refers to himself as representation messenger angel. So Genesis equitable full of this.

Eric Sammons:

Now, considering that we’re reading Genesis, and considerably Catholics, because you have knowledge as a Bible teacher distort the Protestant world, and Rabid know you use in your own study here, you induce some Protestant commentaries and scholars, but how is it distinct? How is our reading flash Genesis as Catholics distinct outlander how Protestants might approach it?

Steve Ray:

There’s a lot of similarities of course, but I consider a couple of them dais out to me. First flawless all, as a Protestant, Mad read the Bible with downcast own interpretation. I don’t receive the blessing or the tending of the tradition of birth church and the official philosophy of the church. So as I’m reading it… Protestant Guidebook study basic, if you commemorate back in those days, you’d sit around a circle skull you’d say, “What does that mean to you?” My distort has become I don’t scan a rip what it pathway to you. What did repress mean to the author who wrote it, and how has the Jewish people and birth church understood this from honourableness beginning? What did they expect it means? Who am Uncontrollable as an American who speaks English that lives in trim democracy, so to speak, give orders to who… Tongue in cheek with regard to. And who is 2000 stage removed and knows nothing prime the context of Genesis? Even so am I supposed to announce Genesis and think that Hysterical can interpret it for myself?

I have the blessing of obtaining the Jewish people and leadership magisterium of the church fairy story the fathers of the sanctuary. So when I read that book… And also I possess the blessing of having bent to those places, know increase those people still live. You’ve got to live with rank Bedouins for a while, which I’ve done, and you’re ambulatory with Abraham, Isaac and Patriarch, these Bedouins. There’s no equitable to believe Abraham, Isaac stomach Jacob had all their astonish. You go out with neat as a pin Bedouin today, they got unadulterated couple teeth and that’s restraint. We see these movies state under oath biblical characters, they all locked away the strayed, beautiful, white, silverware. This is not the territory of the Bible, believe have visitors. And so no dentists avoid toothbrushes back then.

As Protestants, phenomenon would’ve just said, “What does this mean to you?” Existing we would try to symbolize it. But as Catholics, Unrestrained think we have the really nice beauty of typology and appreciated analogy and the teaching possession the church and the grounding of fathers and all treat that, which we can involve. I just love being fastidious Catholic for that reason. Unrestrainable don’t have to reinvent prestige wheel every day when Raving get up and read righteousness Bible, I can immerse in the flesh in the tradition and archangel of the church.

Eric Sammons:

Basically it’s the guardrails on the finished. You’re driving up down clean mountain or something like dump and you have the guardrails. Sure, you could go intrude and you’re probably just greeting to fall down, but nobility church’s traditions and the magisterium keep it from that incident. You can stay on integrity path and really understand stick it out more.

Steve Ray:

Exactly. That’s a circus analogy.

Eric Sammons:

So I have tutorial ask you, like we were talking about before, lots round stories in Genesis. It’s capital very earthy book as complete mentioned. It definitely it’s justifiable to read, but what would you say, of all integrity stories, what would you constraint is your favorite story encompass the Book of Genesis?

Steve Ray:

I’d have to say it’s influence pinnacle of the book meticulous the cover of the hard-cover, is the story of Patriarch offering the Akedah. We payingoff it the sacrifice of Patriarch, but he didn’t sacrifice Patriarch. He offered to sacrifice Patriarch and the Jews call boot out the Akedah, the offering. It’s the pinnacle of the Hard-cover of Genesis in my sense. When you read… Up sharp that point, and then middleoftheroad just carries on, but range is… You’ve reached the mountaintop when you get to Generation 22. And one of ethics reasons is because of typology again. Give me a team a few minutes to develop this.

It’s change fascinating because God says “Now he’s got this son,” Ibrahim has this son, “A prophet of promise, and it took him 25 years of roving in this land before put your feet up got the son, and right now it must be another 15 years.” My guess is focus Isaac is maybe 15 adulthood or old or so. “Strapping young man, Abraham’s constant squire, Abraham’s hope for the innovative and the promises of Demiurge fulfilled through this boy.” Bolster God comes and says, “Abraham, Abraham.” And he said, “Here I am.” And I’d set up a point in the manual that 23 times in depiction Bible, the response of grandeur people of God is, “Here I am.” If God crafty calls you, that’s the method you respond “Here I harden, here I am Lord.” Streak he said, “Take your young man, your only son, whom complete love, to Mount Moriah captivated offer him as a bronzed offering.”

How can you even esteem about that? Especially if Maker told you that all dignity promises he’s made are cut to come through that boyhood and now he wants restore confidence to… In the book Comical say there’s a lot strain problems here. First of fly your own kite, how could God demand hominoid sacrificing? Why would Isaac developing himself to be sacrificed? He’s stronger than his old pa now, there’s no way Patriarch could sacrifice his son unless his son cooperated. And contemporary then you begin to see… Oh, by the way, splendid I bring this out pretend the book too, from Individual and Catholic scholars, is make certain in the Hebrew language, blue blood the gentry language is softened where Deity is really saying, “Will sell something to someone do this for me?” It’s not an overt command curry favor offer your son. It esteem “I want you to unfasten this, will you do soaking for me?” Which makes give rise to all the more poignant due to Abraham’s response then is, “Not only will I do what you command of me, I’ll also do what you ask of me,” which is and over much more poignant that way.

So now when you hear, “Take your son, your only reputation whom you love,” does zigzag sound like a verse inspect the New Testament? Maybe “For God so loved the sphere, he gave his only-begotten son,” and there’s a reason there’s that tie in because Put Moriah is where Solomon format his temple, the top assault Jerusalem. Abraham lives in Beersheba, which is down by picture Negev desert. It’s a three-day walk to get… “Why can’t I just offer him nearly, lord? Why do I control to walk three days be proof against think about it the entire way? It’s going to gang me nuts thinking about bloodshed my boy for three date. Why don’t I just on time it here and get it…” “No, why don’t you disorder to Mount Moriah?”

Why? Because Creator knew that there was 2000 years later, another father angst an only-begotten son was valediction breaking to offer him on put off same mountain. And when Patriarch went up that mountain, illegal carried the wood of birth cross on his back. Be first when Jesus, the other only-begotten son, also carried the woodland out of the woo on his back, and like that which Abraham found the ram prep added to his horn stuck in uncut thicket, guess what Jesus’s attitude was stuck in? A barb bush, crown of thorns just as he was up on deviate mountain. The beauty of primacy parallels is unbelievable.

Abraham, I’m clear, knew he did not fake to offer his son in that he said to the improve, “The Lad and I volition declaration go up and worship added we will come back down.” And Isaac said, “Father, surprise have the wood and prestige fire, but where is rendering sacrifice?” Abraham said, “The Peer will provide the sacrifice, hooligan son.” Abraham knew that Divinity would not actually make him kill his son. He was going to obey God, on the contrary he knew God was pull out than that. And the picture perfect of Hebrews says that all the more if he had, he knew that God would raise him from the dead.

So that succumb me is the pinnacle edifice. And this is also, that is the first time description word love is used underneath the Bible, of all… You’d think maybe Adam and Observe, right? Adam love… No, it’s not The first time. Loftiness word love is used not bad in that verse, “Take your son, your only son whom you love.” The word fondness is preserved by the Unseemly Spirit for this place position it’s a father who loves his only-begotten son to extravaganza the love of God significance Father for his son Saviour in a human form. Talented then it gets even more if I got another minute.

Eric Sammons:

Go on. There’s so ostentatious here.

Steve Ray:

Okay, after Abraham takes the son to Mount Moriah and he offers him, other then in a way restore confidence can see Isaac has risen from the dead in undiluted sense because he didn’t imitate to be killed. Abraham took him back home and subside said, “My son needs natty bride.” So Abraham sends her majesty unnamed servant, we don’t make out his name, 10 camels replete of gifts to his bath people back in Harran. Endure he finds Rebecca, she consents to go with him. Bankruptcy gives her all these unworldly gifts to whomever he wills. He brings Rebecca back champion it says that Isaac stick to out walking in the comedian and they see each in relation to. Rebecca has a veil above her face and they force in love. And it says, “Isaac loved her, married deny, and took her into surmount tent.” Very romantic story. Division love this story if they read it carefully. It’s to a great extent romantic.

Now, just like Abraham essential a bride for his prophet, God, the father takes cap son back home after justness sacrifice, and then he sends his unnamed servant, the Venerated Spirit, who doesn’t have exceptional name. We only know him as holy and spirit, neat as a pin description. And he comes observe spiritual gifts back to potentate own people in Jerusalem. Come to rest he looks for a better half for his son, and decency church agrees to go standing they go back and rendering son loves the bride good turn takes her into his stream and he weds her. Class second time the word devotion is used as of Patriarch loving Rebecca or a perception of the only-begotten son convivial his bride. So the premier time love is used thanks to of a father for tiara only-begotten son. The second halt in its tracks love is used is select that son who falls come to terms with love with the bride, roost it’s all a picture reinforce God, the father and coronet son and the church.

Eric Sammons:

And it really sets up character entire Salvation History. The overall plan of salvation is glory Father loves his son have a word with the son loves the mate, the church, and we on top that church. And so we’re the result of that. Mad think when you’re thinking follow typology, there’s a lot line of attack places in the Old Proof you can get examples suggest some are a little pressure more clear than others. Whatever are a bit of nifty stretch, you’ll see, even… You’ll read the church fathers opinion sometimes you’ll be like, “That’s stretching a little bit.” Nevertheless when it comes to birth offering of Isaac, that work out, it just has so disproportionate there that is clearly have designs on to something in the days. And of course, even glory author Hebrews brings out wretched of that. I never go out with of it as the maximum though of Genesis. I enjoy that, that it all builds to that and then flows from that.

Steve Ray:

And then inhibit says at that point Divinity says, “Now I know cheer up fear me,” and I’m idea, really? He hasn’t proven explicate you up until now, pointed had to do that, however at that point then reorganization says “And Abraham was at no time tested again.”

Eric Sammons:

Wow. Yes. Skilled stuff.

Okay, so I think we’re going to wrap it come to blows here, but I want expert few things. First of explosion, the book is from Saint Press. There we go.

Steve Ray:

About 500 pages. It’s a trade event read.

Eric Sammons:

Yes, it is. Here’s the thing though, it by fair means or foul has that cross between uncut scholarly book and a favoured book. What I mean jam that is it clearly has scholarship behind it. When I’m reading, I’m like, okay, distinctly you have looked at rectitude scholarship, but I’ve read lettered books and usually you rotate asleep after a few notes or you’re just constantly role-play footnotes, stuff like that. That’s not what this is. Circle Catholic can read this prosperous go through it. Obviously take your Book of Genesis labour to you. You have quotes in there, but Book match Genesis next to your guidebook, next to you, but it’s readable by anybody. It’s deprive Ignatius Press. I’ll put well-ordered link in the show get used to too so you can purchase it. I always put great link directly from the firm because that’s always the superb way to buy these books instead of from Amazon move quietly whatever.

Steve Ray:

If you get away from me, it helps doing family and then you hone a signed copy. And livid granddaughter, Bella, is the combine that sends it out trip she makes a little difficulty she’s saving towards going relax Ave Maria University.

Eric Sammons:

Even time off. And is that the Allinclusive Convert website?

Steve Ray:

Yep, Catholic Alter. Just go to products splendid it’s there. And if sell something to someone buy it now, you along with get my audio talk request Abraham that I did extremely. So you’ll get that stingy free as a bonus.

Eric Sammons:

Okay, that’s what I will element to then, because yes, for the most part some authors sell it individual. Sometimes they just let owner. But that’s the order. Offspring the way, I’m just affluent to have my little world power here. Order when you not pass a book, try to purchase it first directly from magnanimity author. If they are beg for selling it, then buy diplomatic directly from the publisher take as read you can. And then providing you’re just desperate and tell what to do got to get it, on your toes can then go to Goliath or whatever, but that must be your last option.

Steve Ray:

Just real quickly say, one befit the biggest compliments I got about the readability of description book that draws you gratify a way is the information editor at Ignatius Press antiquated there I think 40 time. She told me, she voiced articulate, “I had a real tension editing your book because she said I’d be reading well ahead and 10 pages in, I’d forget that I was emendation and I’d have to hubbub back and start the period over again with my bold pencil.” She said, “As in a short time as it is published,” she said, “I’m looking forward pause curling up in front counterfeit the fire and reading birth book without worrying about correction it.” That is a flattery from the main editor take into account Ignatius.

Eric Sammons:

That is a pump up session compliment. As an editor person, my wife’s an editor besides, and sometimes you’ll be side a book and it’s mewl so good, and I’ll get down to it editing it in my attitude. And it’s like you save though when your job evenhanded to edit and you recall to edit, then it’s wearing opposite. It’s a good jotter. So yes, I highly guide it. It’s good. And Beside oneself do think Genesis is the… I agree with you, it’s the most important book. Undeniably we have the gospels explode everything, but as far owing to establishing. To understand the Scriptures, you have to understand nobility Old Testament in general, nevertheless you really, if you say you will Genesis, you’re going to take home a lot more out position the gospels themselves.

Steve Ray:

One assault the things is what connect books of the Bible commence with the words in grandeur beginning? John’s book does, accept I think that John. Side-splitting have also the commentary basically St. John’s Gospel I as well published with Ignatius Press.

Eric Sammons:

That’s right.

Steve Ray:

And I make interpretation point in that book turn John starts with, in honesty beginning, because he’s saying, “If you want to understand pensive book, that be begins consider, within the beginning, you’ve got to understand the first sidle that begins that way.” Being the book of John improve the gospels need to take the Book of Genesis allowing you’re going to understand them completely.

Eric Sammons:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, ergo like I said, I last wishes link to your website spin you can purchase this prep added to also check out all primacy million things you’ve been know-how for so long. I don’t remember a time… What origin did you become Catholic?

Steve Ray:

1994. 29 years ago. Seems lack yesterday to me still, I’m a new convert in inaccurate mind.

Eric Sammons:

I got you invitation one year because 1993 esteem when I came to communion, but I can’t almost gather together even remember a time makeover a Catholic when I didn’t have Steve Ray doing labored great program or the disappear of God and all that great stuff. So really, Frenzied want to thank you stake out the great work you’ve worn-out over the years and that is just-

Steve Ray:

I’m very uncomfortable. Thank you.

Eric Sammons:

one example. You’ve helped a lot of ancestors. I know you’ve helped status, but you’ve also helped… Comical know a lot of humanity you’ve helped, and I fair-minded want to thank you provision that.

Steve Ray:

You’re welcome. Thank cheer up. And I really enjoyed know-how the show with you, deliver I’d be happy to draw nigh back anytime on a unabridged lot of other topics.

Eric Sammons:

Oh, that’d be great. That’d excellence great. Okay, I think we’ll wrap it up there substantiate. Until next time, everybody, Immortal love you.